1 Mar 2006

Keysar on Gay Muslims Chat Forum

Queer Jihad
Keysars Comments

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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 18:38:00 +0000
From: 99077389 <99077389@brookes.ac.uk>
Reply-to: 99077389@brookes.ac.uk
Organization: Oxford BROOKES University
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: (no subject)

I wish you dead. you gay mother-fucker You cant be gay, and call your self a Muslim, you sick fuck-head!!!

From: person4444@yahoo.com
Subject: scholars
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:01:00 -0500

Assalamu Alaikum to those who believe, Have you asked an scholars if homosexuality is allowed in Islam? Keep in in mind Islam is a comprehensive and complete way of life. If you say that you are muslim you must follow all of Islam. That means the Qur'an AND Sunnah of Muhammad (upon whom be peace). So contact a scholar about this issue. Send an e-mail to abuzubair@hotmail.com and he can in touch with some scholars for you.

From: "you mum"
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:56:56 -0000

This is to all those 'gay Munafiqs' out there - you are all batty boy abominations, you are a disgrace to the Islamic world. You cannot be Muslims - you are mentally sick. If I had my way, i would gather all of you up and drop a bomb on all and disintegrate the evil within you. I am Muslim. I am also proud to say i'm homo- phobic, and if you'll like to comment on my words, i'll see you in jahanam when you're there - even if you're cut up in pieces, because if you come to our college I will dissect you, fry you up, and make your partner eat your burnt flesh - and if your a batty boy - cock first.

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:52:08 +1100
From: Anatomy
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: Response to Supposed Quranic Acceptance of Gays

After the first three pages, the document uses specific terms to describe genitalia and sexual acts, if you find such material offensive or upseting, then please do not read it. Irrespective of what you decide, please advise.

The article is below:

The author of your article pretends to be giving an educated Islamic view and claims repeatedly (without any foundation) in the article that the Islamic teachings were developed from the biblical stories. He wrongly states that the Qur`anic reports are second hand accounts of the aforementioned stories, this shows a very poor understanding of Islam.

The verse he quotes early in the article is slightly misinterpreted, it does not say " In preference to women you satisfy your lust with men", it actually says: "You come unto men with lust to the exclusion of women"

This is important as the author of your article makes the claim on page two that the reference to the lecherous act is ambiguous, it is not, the context and the grammatical flow of the verses is clear.

Refer also to Sura 26: verses 165 - 166:

"You are approaching men and leaving what your Lord has created for you of wives, you are in fact people transgressing."

The author's other claim that the people of Lut made no answer is wrong, the Qur`an said "the only answer that his people made was: "evict (or eject) them from your town, they are people who purify themselves."

The author is clearly twisting the meaning of the Qur`anic verses. Firstly, there is no reason for Lut's wife not to be referred to as an 'Ajuz, a term commonly translated as an old or aged person. When the two angels came, the people of Lut wanted to do with them the very thing mentioned in the above verse, when Lut advised them to take his daughters, the Qur`an whilst
it does not explicitly say what to do with the daughters, Lut being a prophet of God could only be telling them to marry these daughters. This is not just a reference to his own biological daughters, but, as some scholars say, it is in fact a reference to all the girls in the town, that is, they should look to gratify their desires with members of the opposite sex and leave these disguised angels alone.

It is true that the people of prophet Lut were guilty of other crimes also, the Qur`an has a fair bit more to say about their story. However, the author fails to realise that the Hadith is clear about the punishment for homosexuality, the Hadith says: kill the one who is penetrating and the one who is being penetrated. Both are guilty of capital crimes. Two of the rightly guided Caliphs used to burn the homosexuals who are caught in the act to death, the Sahaby Ibn Abbas ruled that they should be pushed from the highest building or mountain (whichever is higher) and then stoned to death. At the very least, they would be stoned to death.

Refer to the following hadith in this regard:

"Whomsoever you find doing the deed of the people of Lut, kill the doer and the one to whom it is being done." Narrated by Abu Dawood, Tirmizy, Nasa`i, and Ibn Majah on the authority of 'Ikrima from Ibn Abbas.

Shafi, Qasem Ibn Ibrahim, and Annaser ruled that the punishment is death even if the persons involved are unmarried.

Abi Bakr, the first Khalifa burned homosexuals during his Khilafa, as did Ali, Abdullah Bin Azzubair and Hisham Bin Abdul Malek. Umar and Uthman ruled that the perpetrators must be stoned to death, Ibn Abbas said that the perpetrators must be pushed from the highest structure in the land. (refer Fiqhusunna volume 2 page 387)

The second major problem with the article is that we are not interested in what the bible says about Sodom and Gammorah, the Qur`an clearly states that the bible has been corrupted.

Refer to the Qur`an Sura 4; verse 46, "Of those who are Jews are they who change the words (of revelation) from what they were", also Sura 5; verse13 referring to the Israelites from verse 12 states: "... they change the words (of revelation) from what they were..." and verse 41 of the same Sura": "... they change the words (of revelation) from what they were...".

To say the following about the prophet Muhammad peace and blessings upon him renders the entire argument in your article as false because the authors of your article are basing it all, in its entirety on a false premise.

They claim: "The first thing to note is that these Qur

The fact of the matter is quite different, the Qur`an is not second hand, it is a direct revelation from Allah, the One Who was observing and the One Who issued the decree relating to the destruction of Sodom and Gammorah.

The Qur`an states at Sura 5; verse 48: "We revealed to you the book in truth, verifying what is before it of the book and overriding it ...".

So, whilst there may be sections in the bible which are useful, the corruption makes the entire book inadmissible as evidence. The Qur`an overrides and supercedes the bible.

The Hadith is clear about this issue, apart from the Hadith that states that both parties must be killed, it also states that a Muslim man is not even permitted to sodomise a woman, for sodomy is sinful.

Another important aspect that the authors of your article have ignored is that in Islam, sex is only permissible within the bounds of marriage, refer the verse about chastity Sura 23; verse 7, sex is only permitted with one's spouse or in the case of a man, his spouse or what his right hand possesses of female concubines, anything beyond that is referred to as transgression.

Allah also says:

"... Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my blessing over you and given you Islam as your religion ...". Sura 5; verse 3.

To be perfected and completed means that we have been given guidance for every aspect of our lives. The prophet peace and blessings upon him never conducted a gay wedding ceremony, in fact he said, kill the doer and the one to whom it is being done. So, if sex in Islam can only take place within marriage and homosexuals can never be married, this means that Islam bans acts of male to male sodomy.

As these people cannot be married, how do they propose to have sex? Such sex can only take place without marriage, any extra marital sex is subject to the punishment of 100 stripes for each offence for a single person or stoning to death for a married person.

However, the Ahadith narrated above are clear, both the doer and the person to whom it is being done must be killed, the only difference in opinion is with respect to the manner of killing, whether this should be by burning, or by pushing from a height and then stoning to death.

The author, as if to have a dig at Islam, refers to multiple partners on a number of occasions. He is trying to imply that a possible reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gammorah may have been because they had multiple partners. We have already explained that the main sin that the Qur`an states that earned this punishment for Sodom and Gammorah was their
homosexuality. The author knows that Islam permits managed and controlled polygyny, in fact, polygyny is a wholesome progression for society as it guarantees adequate matrimonial security and gratification, spiritually, emotionally and physically for all the women in society, whereas homosexuality is mere depraved carnal pursuit with no care for anything other than the perverted "homosexual's" own obstinacy and illicit abnormal gratification.

The authors also tried to blame the matter on genes and hormones. Yet they could only be referring to psychological factors, genes and hormones have not turned an anus into a vagina and never will. Some American studies have found that Americans who consume large quantities of meat that has been fed with chemicals and hormones and other fattening substances are likely to have higher incidences of homosexuality. However, let us examine it from a purely intellectual aspect.

If we deal with the issue through logic -

Homosexuality is not logical

You are the med. student, tell me, is the anus an inlet or an outlet? Is it designed to take-in or to excrete? In fact any large object that is inserted without artificial or external lubrication will cause damage to the outer ring or anus and to the rectal cavity, there will be tearing and bleeding, irrespective how aroused the recipient male or female happens to be at the time. Further the repeated action of shoving and withdrawing will create much more dry friction and lead to much tissue damage. However, when it comes to natural intercourse, in all cases, unless the woman has a condition, the woman with little foreplay will produce enough lubricants to ensure the normal sexual penetration will not cause any tissue damage (with the exception of breaking the hymen in the case of a virgin or a woman whose hymen was surgically restored).

The reality is, in most cases, they do use some form of lubricant, this in itself is an admission that the act is unnatural.

So, from the onset, we know that the insertion of a foreign body into the anus without lubrication will cause tissue damage and is most likely to result in bleeding and infection. As a med. Student, you would also know the chemical properties of human semen which tends to be somewhat abrasive from a laymen's (excuse the pun, it is completely unintended) perspective. You would also be able to describe better than me the effect of smearing an abrasive substance over cuts and abrasions. You may perhaps also observe the effect of the little sperms on cuts and abrasions, I leave that for your own laboratory observations. You are also in a better position to comment on the effect of applying compressed faeces on cuts and abrasions.

Hence, we have the AIDS council encouraging the use of condoms. You may find that gays, even in monogomous relationships, and these are not the norm, will have to frequently use condoms when they choose to engage in their perverse sodomy, otherwise the risk is as you know painfully deadly.

This risk is not present with normal vaginal intercourse that takes place between a male husband and a female wife.

I have so far only dealt with the damage that is done to the sodomised person.

Let us examine the perpetrator of the perverse penetration. What will happen to the male penis when it is repeatedly rubbed into a tight hole that is not lubricated? You know that the penis will also have tissue damage and several layers of skin will be gone. As a male, you know that the skin on the most sensitive part has a particular sensitivity to touch. Tissue damage will occur to the penis unless sufficient lubrication is applied.

What I was trying to prove above is that a person has to resort to external or unnatural means to minimise tissue damage in the case of sodomy. What I hoped in doing this is to prove that the penis is not created or designed to be inserted into an anus and similarly, an anus is not meant to receive a penis.

The second important issue that relates to sex is the gratification or climax that the act itself is meant to give to the two parties.

We know that the penis is a sexual organ that is subject to arousal and that rubbing against this organ will lead to a climax or ejaculation. However, neither the anus nor the rectum can be described as sexual organs, they both lack the necessities that you find inside a woman's vulva which create the excitement or enjoyment.

Having said this, some men have been known to also ejaculate when penetrated. This ejaculation is of two types. Either psychological or physical, but in both cases, it is not natural and is not the same as a climax by the person doing the penetration or in the case of a woman who is engaging in sexual intercourse.

Homosexuality is psychological not physical!

As you would know from your studies, the insertion of a penile sized object into the rectum will lead to pressure on a number of glands, particularly the prostrate gland, leading to a squeezing out of the seminal fluids rather than a proper ejaculation. This has been observed in cases of torture through the insertion of foreign objects into a subject's rectum.

The cases where it is psychological should be self explanatory. However, a brief explanation at this point may ensure that any potential ambiguity is minimised. Where a person convinces himself that a particular act is gratifying, or a particular behaviour is desirable, then anything in that field short of that act will be felt lacking. For example, if we take the case of a man who desires to engage in sexual intercourse with a woman, we find that this man will be ungratified or unfulfilled and the desire will remain there until it materialises. Masturbation will not remove the desire, neither will oral sex, they will only increase it. In this case, the desire is not just mental, it is also physical because of the nature of the vagina and the nature of the reaction of the woman in intercourse. It will not be sufficient to go through the seminal discharge to remove the desire despite the fact that the desire may have been instigated by a physical drive. However, as the drive was unfulfilled and the desire for the woman came, the gratification will only be achieved when this intercourse takes place. The situation with a homosexual is somewhat different, I purposely used the example of a heterosexual to illustrate a point in relation to the effect of mutual gratification. However, in the case of a "homosexual", if he convinces himself that he is a strict homosexual, then true gratification through normal ejaculation that results in sexual intercourse with a woman will not soothe his mental condition. The only thing that will remove the mental confusion for this person would be for him to realise that what he wants is wrong. Natural sex will remove the drive, however, it will not pacify his mind unless he acknowledges that his desire for perversion is unacceptable.

On the physical side, it suffices to say that the anus is not equipped with the necessary qualities to make it a sexual organ. It is only its proximity to the organs of reproduction that allows its inclusion in the erogenous zone. Any arousal caused by touching the anus usually results from a feeling of adventure and anticipation with fear, again, this is psychological and should not be allowed to regress into sodomy. In both cases, that is, in both heterosexual sex and homosexual sex, the mouth is also used, therefore, the arousal in the case of the person using the mouth is only psychological as it creates an expectation of penetration of the vagina, the only sexual satisfaction comes to the penis that is being treated orally and not to the mouth. So, through its use, the mouth is transformed into a sexual organ, however, the mouth is not a sexual organ per se.

The hand is also used in like manner at times, but, it also is not a sexual organ, that is, it is not an organ that brings sexual satisfaction to one of the parties by itself, unless it be a person masturbating with his or her own hand.

Homosexual relationships

How do homosexual relationships develop? Generally, the recipient may be convinced or forced at a young age, when he is weak and impressionable. He may end up sodomising others later in life, he may end up offering himself for sodomy or he may have difficulty with sex altogether. However, this is an extension of the first act of perversion. A person may also be influenced into homosexuality by a trusted friend, however, this also does not make the act natural. There are those who now, with the popularisation of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle, will experiment with it because of troubles they had in their heterosexual relationships. The may feel that the trouble or incompatibility of their partner in those relationships is attributable to their own sexuality. This is also a strange claim, because people admit incompatibility on other issues and may break friendships for this incompatibility, however, they will also develop other friendships. Problem relationships in nature are not a statement of the sexuality of the individuals and should not be treated in this manner.

I find it preposterous to suggest that a male who has not been corrupted at a young age, would go around saying that he can only obtain sexual gratification by being sodomised. Males who are being sodomised can only obtain sexual gratification through additional acts that involve a caressing of their penis.

Homosexuality, like other crimes starts with a whim, crimes of theft are punishable because the damage is easily discernable, the same applies for other crimes of violence. Crimes like homosexuality and promiscuity are not as easily discernable for the irreligious because they do not see the real effects of these crimes on society and generally their effects are not in sufficient proximity to the crime itself. Whilst the argument that a society of homosexuals will not procreate may be one end of the spectrum, the real argument is that sex as a drive is only present to encourage procreation, the pleasures that are associated with it are similar though are different in sensation to the pleasures associated with eating or drinking.

Whilst gratification is an acknowledged effect of the uses of the sexual organs, it is not the reason that these organs are in place. These types of organs exist, not just in humans, but in animals and in vegetation in order to preserve the species. Using these organs in acts of sodomy or same sex relationships is a misuse or an abuse of these organs and only leads to an increase in social evils.

Homosexuality and animals

If sheep were to claim that they are homosexual, human society would not allow them to do so, because this would lead to the sheep not breeding. True that food animals are in general produced through artificial insemination, however, if this was not the case, society will not permit animals to be homosexuals because they see the dangers to their material interests. Yet male dogs will engage in homosexual acts, but bring a bitch on heat and they will leave each other and compete for her pleasure. The same with bulls, put a group of young bulls in a pen together and they will try and mount their nearest bovine friend, however, when cows are present, his preference will always change to the natural practice. Their practice of same sex perversion is only done to gain relief from seminal build up and to gain some gratification. Yet the human being is supposed to be more civilised than that.

We have seen that in the case of animals being artificially inseminated, certain types of animals are exposed to certain scents before the insemination in order to increase the chance of conception. In all cases, the scent that is used is one that is obtained from the male of the species or resembles in chemical composition the same scent that is produced by the male of the species. Comparing with human same sex relationships, there is no existence of a scent of the opposite sex, this scent is normally produced when the partners are aroused. Therefore, the natural fulfillment will never be achieved, the perverted acts will never completely fulfil the sexual drive.

Sex is meant to be a private activity

Sex amongst humans is by its nature meant to be a private affair, yet homosexuals tend to promote their perversion and even in free licentious Western society they want to force us to believe that they are incapable of heterosexual sex because of a hormone imbalance or a perverted predisposition. The natural extension of this argument is that all crime results from a sort of hormone imbalance, so why prosecute other crimes and acquiesce to this ugliest form of perversion. The perpetrator of sodomy cannot say that he can only be gratified by men, for a female anus is little different to a male anus. What this man is saying is that he must degrade and humiliate another man by emasculating him and using him in a manner that does not fit with his gender, simultaneously, this man is saying that women are not fit for their main biological purpose (though not their only purpose in life, for their role in life is not only a sexual one), what is more, he is also trying to say that the other man submits to this treatment willingly. They extend their argument to try to convince us that those sodomised men who have committed suicide as a result of their inability to cope with the humiliation only did so because of society's expectations.

Sex needs for a willing partner

Whether the person claims to be homosexual or not, sex can legally only be performed with a willing partner, unlike food, a person will not die without sex, deprivation may lead to deviation, but it will not lead to death. So, without a willing partner, a person who claims to be homosexual may be unable to have sex at all at any stage of his life, even if he lives to be a hundred. Therefore, this person who claims to be homosexual, and abides by the law and lives his life without sex in reality, has no need to express any of this deviant "sexuality". The mere fact that a man has not come in contact with a woman who is sufficiently attractive to him does not make him a blatant homosexual. Similarly, the fact that the man may have feelings for another man does not mean that this man must extend these feelings into acts of sodomy. Loving a fellow male does not necessitate that one party must make himself available for penetration, neither does it necessitate for the other
party to penetrate the first.

Perversion becomes like any addiction

It is curious how addictions are acknowledged with respect to drugs and other addictive substances and not when it comes to issues like perversion. When a person is introduced to drugs and this person continues to take these until an addiction is developed, this addiction is treated as it is recognised that drugs are harmful. It is not argued that the person takes drugs or becomes addicted to these because of a hormone imbalance or a natural predisposition to drugs. The same applies to perversion, when a person engages in deviant acts, he becomes addicted to perversion, we see several phenomena amongst
homosexuals. There are those who promote change in their physiology by undergoing hormone treatment so that their entire body begins to take the shape and form of the sexual role which they choose to adopt. The other type just rebels against nature and continues to engage in their activities without hormone treatment.

Homosexuality, hormone treatment and sex change

Those who undertake hormone treatment may go further and at one stage or another in their lives undergo a sex change operation. In this regard, I wish to extend the argument, the partner of the person on hormone treatment is a person who claims to be naturally predisposed to homosexuality, yet when the partner takes hormone treatment and the body starts to take on the same qualities as those of the opposite sex, the relationship is not threatened. In fact, the phenomenon that we observe in such relationships is that when a person is treated sexually as belonging to a particular sex, and the person accepts this role, the hormone treatment is taken to add to the mental process, so first they are convinced and then they make the change. If the operation takes place and the person does change sex, the partner of this person finds himself or herself forced to engage in sexual conduct with a person who is physically of the opposite sex. So you will have a case where a homosexual relationship changes into a heterosexual relationship without changing the individuals, and lesbians or sodomites change into heterosexuals. They still achieve gratification, the difference is that one of them could not cope with acting out a role that is different to their sex so they changed their sex surgically, so the other person, the one who does not change sex ends up engaging in sexual conduct with the opposite sex even though prior to the operation, this person claimed that he or she was not aroused by the opposite sex.

As for those homosexuals who do not take hormone treatment and do not change their sex, their situation is one where they either have not come to terms as to which role they wish to play, so they lead a life of confusion or obstinacy or they may be bisexual. It is rare for those who claim to be strictly homosexuals to switch between roles, this is distinct from people who engage in bisexual conduct. In both cases it is perversion, and the point that I wish to make is that the conduct of these people just becomes more and more perversely demanding. The constant chaffing that occurs with male homosexuals leads to reduced sensitivity of the organs and increased difficulty to find gratification, those who switch roles only do so because they reach a stage where penetrating others no longer provides any sense of gratification, they have to create a changed scenario, they will have to make another quirk in their perversion, otherwise, arousal becomes very difficult and a
gratifying climax becomes a virtual impossibility. Therefore in their increasing need for perversion, they may switch into recipients and remain in that role, not for a personal climax, but for mental satisfaction as gratification through satisfactory ejaculation is no longer achievable. So as recipients, they may end up ejaculating through the pressure that the intruding penis places on their prostate and other glands.

Whether they change their sex or not, those who play the part of the female in a homosexual relationship will generally go through much work to maintain an attractive (feminine) appearance. They may workout regularly in order to keep an attractive shape, they may shave not only their legs, but also wax their entire bodies. They may even feel that they need to regularly apply massage oils to reduce the natural defences of the particular orifice. In any event, it is a real chore in order to comfortably fit into an unnatural role. To add to the attraction, these people tend to walk like females, they keep their faces shaved and they will tend to wear feminine perfumes. Undergoing all these deceptive changes to their bodies, in some cases, their appearance may not be distinguishable from that of a woman without close inspection. This deception in itself may fool some other members of the community. In some cases, without the moral reservations, a male who discovers that the woman he has been staring at is actually a man may in some circumstances question his own sexuality or inclination. We have seen cases where a man who is not homosexual pursue a same sex attraction, this usually, like the case of young bulls in a pen, takes place in prisons and usually the victim is sodomised by force. However, this can also happen outside of prisons and there are cases where this attraction leads to murder as in the recent case of a man who murdered a five year old girl in order to keep her quite whilst he tried to find her pre-teen brother in the house so that he can rape him.

Lesbianism is little different to shared masturbation

The case of lesbians is slightly different, without facial hair, the vaginal discharges which vary in their acidity damage facial tissue in lesbian oral sex. If a woman resorts to artificially penetrating another woman's vagina, then the question becomes one of trying to establish if there is a difference between that penetration and a penal penetration, she claims that she cannot be aroused by a man, yet she needs to be penetrated to increase her gratification, a real dilemma arises with respect to the credibility of her claim in this regard. Any penetration of the vagina or anus of a woman necessitates the posing of such a question. A woman may suggest that she prefers other women because she cannot handle the demands of a man, or she fears being beaten etc. This does not make her a lesbian, it only makes her a person who is seeking sexual gratification through unnatural means because she fears not the sex itself but the man behind it. We know that any slight degree of foreplay can arouse a woman to reach a climax, a woman does not need to be penetrated to have an orgasm. Penetration only adds to the gratification and the excitement, without it, she feels unfulfilled (please excuse the pun), even if penetrated,
a seminal discharge inside her will boost the sensation and heighten the excitement to greater levels of ecstasy. Thus, for a woman, whilst she may climax very easily, true gratification comes with penetration, heightened gratification comes with both penetration and ejaculation. There is no form of stimuli or penetration that a woman may do to another woman that cannot be done by a man to a woman, the difference is that natural organs will be used for their natural functions. Lesbianism is a mental fear and not a natural relationship. It is little different to shared masturbation. In the case where one of the ladies changes sex, then the issues discussed above will apply.

Love and attraction

I would like to take you back to the issue of attraction and to the love that may develop from this attraction. Before we take the case of perverted relationships, let us examine the case of friendship and love amongst heterosexuals. A person living a strict heterosexual life, for whatever reason will still develop strong filial love for people of the same sex, they may hug and kiss each other every time they greet one another, they may just shake hands. They may love each other to an extent that they will make great sacrifices for each other, yet, as strict heterosexuals, even if a homosexual thought was to enter into their minds, they would strive against it and take precautions and force this thought out and away. A bisexual or homosexual may interpret these feelings as latent natural homosexuality that is suppressed by oppressive environmental conditioning or religious or social pressures. Yet, if a homosexual was finding inclinations towards a member of the opposite sex, this is never likely to be interpreted as his true nature coming out, other homosexuals will treat it as their friend succumbing to pressures from family or religion.

It is natural for a person to be attracted to beauty in any of its relevant manifestations. What is beautiful to one person is not necessarily beautiful to another, so the relevant manifestation is subjective to the individuals concerned. Impressions that are left on an individual may lead to feelings of respect, love and admiration or hatred and detestation or envy and grudge. Emotional extremes develop some form of action and do not remain static. The most relevant emotions in our situation are those relating to respect, love and admiration. When these emotions develop in a person who is regularly in close proximity with his object of admiration, the person, if perverted may carry them further into sexual submission to the object of his admiration. If not perverted, these feelings may be developed into loyalty, increased respect and estimation and a filial bond.

Perverted people are predators

Perverted people will prowl for a prey, each perverted person will search for what appeals to him. I do not wish to delve into the issue of those who go out seeking prostitutes of the same or the opposite sex, nor those who go to homosexual night clubs or known homosexual handouts in order to find same sex temporary or permanent partners. I am trying to tackle the issue of when a person actually decides that he wants to be inclined towards homosexual perversion. It is not common that a person goes and experiments with both to see which is more enjoyable, to do so, a male would have to go through three or four different experiments to determine which role best suits him. To follow this line, a person will have to say to himself: "I have not determined my inclinations in either direction yet, so, today, I am going to find a really attractive woman, have natural and unnatural sex with her and see which one I prefer most." Then, on another occasion, all conditions being the same, he says, that on this day, he must go and find a man and have, well, in this case, it would all be unnatural, so, he would either do or be done, and on the third occasion, he would take whatever role he did not try previously. Then he would sit and evaluate all the experiences and determine which is the most gratifying. If still uncertain, he would repeat all the above experiments with different partners.

As I said, although it may happen, this is uncommon. Such a suggest pretends to treat people like mechanical beings and ignores emotions as well as misinterprets these emotions. When emotions and attractions are taken into consideration, depending on morality or conditioning, a person is likely to pursue the first attraction. With society as it is today, there is a strong competition amongst people in general to be attractive or more attractive. It is not abnormal for a person to be attracted to many people. It is only morality and decency that will help safeguard a person from the problems of promiscuity and the pursuance of unnatural relationships.

It is ridiculous to suggest, (or at the least, it would contradict the arguments of a homosexual) conscious experimentation determines sexual inclination. When it comes to homosexuality, the main argument that they are trying to force upon the rest of society is that their perversion is a natural hormonal predisposition. Therefore, if a natural relationship develops with a female, this would be a complete sexual failure and they would not be able to perform in any way shape or form, they would not get an erection, nor would they ejaculate and they feel no arousal whatsoever.

Failing with the opposite sex, this person theoretically finds himself totally aroused when he is near members of the same sex so he wants to engage in sexual conduct with the same sex. He is not aroused with the opposite sex, he is only aroused by the same sex (or so he claims), the next question is, which role does he wish to take? Whether he takes the role of the doer or the done, he will be subjecting himself to the physical dangers that I mentioned early on in this thesis, as such arousal is not meant to be fulfilled, but rather, and is meant to be treated. Extending this unreal theoretical situation, what would happen to this person if he does not realise his perversion? Many people go through life unable to engage in any sexual activity, this did not kill them, some spend so much time absorbed in other pursuits that they do not give any time to their sexuality.

Another situation arises with respect to a person who receives his first suggestive advances from a member of the same sex. Not having been exposed to these issues, the mere suggestion of these activities get the mind thinking. If the person has no reservations about the issue, he may be led to experiment, and if this is his only experience with sex then he may feel that it is natural.

The situation dealt with in the preceding two paragraphs is a wild hypothetical that is very unlikely to happen, unless it be in a case where an adult is molesting a child. When it comes to sex, there are chemicals at play, it is not mere man's body in the presence of a woman's body, there are other factors that provide for an exciting and complete arousal and fulfillment.

Treating perversion

Again, the issue with respect to those who claim to be homosexual, once they begin to engage in their perversion on a regular basis, because it is sinful and evil, it becomes addictive and they will have difficulty to quickly adjust to normal life. Like any other sin or crime, it uses up portions of their time, effort and mental processes, to treat it, one has to find a substitute activity to fill their time, take their effort and engage fruitfully their mental processes. I have used the term sin and evil though I have not really gone into religion since I started dealing with the logical side, as the religious position is clear. The religious treatment of such perversion, in a situation like the world find itself in today, where religious law cannot be applied, is one that begins by an admission of the pervert that what he is engaging in is wrong. After the admission comes a willingness to change and to accept the treatment which would begin with remembering God and His Glory and Power. Then, the person must regularly pray for forgiveness, after this, the time that this person used to invest into these pursuits will need to be filled with other activities that are physically removed from the previous environment. The person will also need to ensure that he will keep away from the perverted environment until he is completely reformed.

Religion puts guidelines and limits and says that these limits belong to God, so they should not be breached, apart from carrying a penalty, such breaches are damaging to society, so it is in the interest of society in its entirety to introduce checks to ensure that these limits are not breached. All the divinely set limits are there for a reason and as a protection against a greater evil. Allah says in the Qur`an that He has prohibited the Fawahish (Sura 7; verse 33), that is, the ugly, shameful, evil and destructive acts. Homosexuality is also described as Fahisha (the singular form of fawahish) (Sura 7; verse 80).

Many whims and desires come through a person's mind every day. Desires increase with exposure to "objects of desire". For example, when one sees a beautiful car, automatically a desire to possess this begins to develop. It is only a review of the facts surrounding this desire, like can I afford it? Will it have a high petrol consumption? Will it fulfil my needs? An intelligent person will weigh the pros and cons and decide. A person who may not be able to afford the object of his desire may go and steal it, thus transgressing a limit that is set by both God and society.

A person may see a beautiful rose in somebody's garden, he may ask the owner if can have it, he may admire from a distance, or he may just take it. If he just takes it, again, he is breaching a limit that is set by both God and society.

A person may see a beautiful item of clothing, he will again weigh the pros and cons relating to affordability and functionality and determine whether it is suitable. If this item of clothing is not in a shop but is worn by another person, it would be preposterous for him to go and demand to have it, for there is a social convention that must be respected.

In all these cases, the desire or the whim were there, however, the person is forced to observe his limit.

Another slightly more difficult case is also possible, a person may desire a certain job, irrespective of the pros and cons, or even if he realises that the job is beyond his abilities, he embarks on this job. It is natural that he will fail because he has gone out to do something that contradicts the conventions. That is, he is trying to do something that is beyond his abilities, so failure is inevitable sooner or later.

A comparison with other crimes whose effects are not immediate After centuries of waste dumping and unnatural deforestation, the "civilised" countries determined that pollution and deforestation are damaging to the environment. They are now attempting to treat their past transgressions against nature, of course with the different lobbies, despite knowing
that pollution and deforestation are damaging, their governments will allow pollution and deforestation to continue if the lobby is strong enough, yet they see the danger and the threat, but they will only respond to the danger when the other lobby is sufficiently strong. The other lobby draws its strength through promoting their views and educating people, they are helped by the fact that they can demonstrate the veracity of their claims. Having made some progress, the environmental lobby was able to bring in some controls to reduce pollution and manage deforestation, not enough controls and not enough management, however, the process is in place. Only God knows how long before the damage that was previously done will begin to reverse?

A similar situation arises with benign diseases. When cancer starts, it is not deadly, it only becomes deadly if it is allowed to continue to spread. If it is not diagnosed as a cancer, it will continue until it devastates the entire body, it may reach a stage where it becomes untreatable.

The situation with homosexuality and perversion is not much different to the above. Environmental crimes were not recognised as crimes until their effects were seen on the oceans, the rivers, the forests and the atmosphere. The effects of homosexuality are being ignored because of the power of the homosexual lobby. Due to the nature of the crime, even the spread of AIDS was not sufficient to deter people from it, neither was it enough to accept that homosexuality is wrong. Instead, they try to find anything else to attribute the AIDS virus to, and they try to find ways to engage in sodomy with a reduced risk of contracting the deadly virus. Whatever they wish to attribute the disease to, they will not advise monogomous, uninfected males to sodomise each other without condoms. Not because they fear promiscuity with other males who may be infected, but because they know that the activity itself will lead to disease. Like those who continued to rape the environment for so long, they will only be stopped when other dangers to society become salient and a sufficiently powerful lobby begins working to combat this crime. Regardless of the power of this lobby, the pro-homosexual lobby cannot be stopped until society stands firm and points to them through logic that we do not accept their arguments. At such a stage, a real process to treat all the malignant cases of same sex perversion and a process of protecting the rest of society from this transgression against nature can begin.

In the field of human personal sexual conduct, we are being told by the homosexual lobby to disregard all the issues mentioned in this thesis. They demand that we ignore the functionality of organs, the purpose of creation, the roles of the different sexes, the psychology of sex, the nature of human relations and the short and long term damage to society and we must without any argument be forced to accept their representations. Their's is not a plausible argument. The presence of excess genes of an opposing sex in a person does not change the function of his or her body. If these genes or hormones were meant to be dominant in reality, why did they not influence the development of the organs into being of the so called dominant sex? As you can see, it is an unacceptable argument to impose on the rest of humanity. It is the argument of a lobby who cannot justify its perversion through logic, so they try to resort to unnatural arguments to impose this argument on the rest of us.

Keysar Trad

From: "UddinZ"
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 13:07:59 -0000









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From: Oumsont@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 00:12:00 EST
Subject: gays in islam
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com


I wanted yo know where in the Koran its say that being gay is right and ok. I am not trying to be rude its just that I teach Islam to kids and in the Koran it all way states that being gay is wrong. Please help me understand what you believe.


Sulayman X replies: Let's go about this the other way around: Where in the Qur'an does it say 'being gay is wrong'?

Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 23:36:17 +0000
From: Adam Riaz Khan
Organization: Brunel University
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: What?

Do you know that there is an ideological contradiction in claiming to be homosexual and at the same time associating yourself with Islam. Please could you explain your justification for being a muslim and a homosexual when the holy Koran condemns homosexuality.

From: "k muslima"
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: naseeha
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:33:02 PST

THERE IS NO SUCH THING! I hate the thought of seeing the two side-by-side. May Allah rain stones on u as HE did with the tribe of Lut, and may He swallow the earth with u and torment u with deafening noise as HE did with the tribe of Lut. The only nation to recieve Allah's anger to that extent while still on earth. May u burn in the depths of HELL!!! Ameen!!

U are a perverted son of a *( but then again, if u'r mom is a muslim ( implying one can't be both), may Allah bless her). Islam is, was, will always be above that!

:-k out!

Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:28:45 -0600
From: Mohamed Ahmed
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: Homosexuality in islam

This is the disgusting thing I've ever seen in this world.How can a man bend over his fellow man and fuck him? That is the worst thing ever happened to this world.Islam does not condone that kind of action, sodomising is a great sin in Islam as everybody knows from the people of Lut who were destroyed because of that nusty action.A real muslim would not do that but as we muslims know, Sheitan comes in many ways and now that this person pretending to be a muslim and trying to link islam and homosexuality is not a muslim but a desciple of sheitan and may Allah curse him from now to the end of the world. Please note one thing if you don't like islam don't tarnish it with your filthy action you are a pig a descendant of sheitan.REMEMBER NO ONE CAN DESTROY OR TARNISH ISLAM.THEY HAVE TRIED BEFORE YOU AND DIDN'T SUCCEED.SO,DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME GO FIND A SICK SHEITAN LIKE YOU AND FUCK.MAY ALLAH AND ALL HIS ANGEL CURSE YOU TO THE END OF THE WORLD.ALLAH BROUGHT ISLAM AND HE WILL DEFEND AND SAVE IT AS HE PROMISED.TELL YOUR PEOPLE YOU CAN NOT DO IT.

To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: WOW!
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 04:58:41 BST

Hi guys!
These pages are very interesting, I am overwhelmed. I'm saying this, because I visited Jordan this summer and met more gay men than I do when I go to a gay bar in the UK. I was suprised to see that gay men actually meet up in a county like Jordan. I don't consider it very strict, but some rules seemed to be quite hash.

Another thing I noticed was: You will not be accepted as gay, but boys and men were holding hands and kissing each other on the mouth..... Well, in my country you would be considered gay if you did that, and nobody would actually bother. Can anyone axplain this????? Also, I met two straight men, who had sex with a goat, because that was (according to them) not as sinful as having sex with a girl before they got married......

From: IDeen35009@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 04:16:38 EDT
Subject: sad thing is...
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com

the sad thing is...

all muslim fanatics (and there are alot out there and in here)...

think that they are GOD himself.

i know god has no gender but i have taken literary licence.

From: IDeen35009@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 04:12:05 EDT
Subject: disturbing
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com

the amount of crass swearing and foul-language used by those who claim to be true followers of islam is disturbing indeed. are you not a race of people who embrace harmony and peace.... and yet you jump on the muslim bandwagon screaming obscenities to the skies like madmen the minute you amount enough courage to say something. you are muslims...yet you don't act like it... your hate is so thick it foams around your lips when you speak to other humans that you seem like the devil himself. And alot of you need to learn, get some wisdom and education for only then will you live a life worth living.
Another thing, those of you who condemn might try reading the dictionary once in a while because your spelling mistakes are horrendous.

To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
CC: labarronedwards@excite.com
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:46:34 -0400
Subject: You disgust me immensely
From: labarron k edwards

To those of you who worship the shaitan and your beastly desires,

I am a true Muslim and I am very disgusted about your site.

May Allah curse you all, and astaghfiruallah. How can you dare call yourselves Muslims!!!!!! is this the teachings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W.A.W.S.)? !!!!!!NO!!!!!! Islam does not teach homosexuality. Can you come up with evidence that Islam is in favor of homosexuality? It's fake Muslims like all of you involved that gives Islam a poisoned outlook. Because of your ignorance and temptations of the shaitan, thousands of people who look at your site as reference to Islam will be under the misconception that Islam accepts homosexuality. I would like to know how you can recite
the glorious verses of the quran with a mouth polluted with the remnants of another man's penis. You are filthy, vile, disgusting individuals and may you all be sent to the valley of lust in barzakh where you will be tossed and turned through the filth of the valley in which you will be in the black sut where you will have your flesh burned off of your body. You will be disgraced on the day of judgement when you will be resurrected with the discharge of the vaginas from the prostitutes coming from your mouths and noses and ears and every other orifice of your body. You claim that you were born to be homosexual but you are a bunch of liars and blasphemers and there is no way that you can dispute my words.

You were not created to be sent to hell and sent to disgrace and destruction because that would mean that Allah is not just which is totally blasphemous. Also Allah has given mankind the ability to choose, whether it be right of wrong, and it is man who chooses to be homosexual and it is a man who is going to be punished in the hellfire for that behavior. Furthermore, you have not considered the well being of the children who may happen to stumble onto your site. This message of homo acceptance is a pollutant and a destroyer of all the morals and ethics of mankind. The first Prophet of Islam, Adam(A.S.), and the first woman of Islam, Eve, were created for a purpose which was to multiply and procreate so that the human race would be established, not to just have sex and have no purpose in the cycle of human existence. In closing I would like to say may Allah guide you to his truth and may he forgive you for your unholiness and despicableness. If you decide to stay on the path that you are on then may Allah curse and revile you all for eternity and may you never have any peace in your lives and always be in a state of degradation.

If you would like to respond to this e-mail contact me at labarronedwards@hotmail.com

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:51:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chacha Marley
Subject: Your NIGHTMARE
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com




From: FBCBeverly
To: "'gaymuslims@geocities.com'"
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:01:25 -0400

I am writing to you from the church office of First Baptist Church in
Beverly, Massachusetts. I happened upon your site by accident but must
say that I was thrilled to discover it.

We are a church affirming of gay and lesbian people. I am openly gay as
is my partner, a Baptist minister, who is also a member of this church.
In addition, the church itself has a gay minister. We have been very
much embroiled in the struggle within our own faith to create safe
space for lesbians and gay men. While we have achieved it in our
congregation, our denomination as a whole is very much in conflict.

Good luck in your endeavors to reconcile faith and sexuality, for
yourself and for your fellow gay and lesbian Muslims.


Jim Singletary

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:26:01 +0400
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Reply-to: mawarid9@emirates.net.ae
Organization: Chemicals

I am totally dissapaointed while going through this site..Firstly I was dissapointed by the topic and subject of this site.It is clear ,that the intentions of the creator are not good for Islam.I 'm sure that the Holy Quran has the answer to mr.suleman's questions .Homosexuel activities are not by any chance allowed in Islam...I hope the main ppl behind this site stop playing around with the sentiments of Muslims and stop the intended defamatory sentences which defame our beloved religion Islam.I pray to Allah if the ppl behind this site are Muslims ,ALLAH FORGIVE THEIR SINS AND MAKE THEM TO COME ON THE RIGHT PATH AND HAVE MERCY ON THEM..

I was also very disturbed to see very offensive ,abusive foul langauge from many other Muslim brothers ....Brothers Islam is a religion of peace..and of tolerance ...It has over a period of years spread around the globe very rapidly..but it has spread by word and not by sword...this indicates our character to other ppl...please ppl control your emotions and explain cleary to the inventors of this site about ALLAH"S WRATH.....I think that who ever has initiated this site should withdraw this subject and start all over with a subject that would enhance our knowledge of Islam. and let the ppl of the world know what
good thingsTHE real Islam is all about.



lets' see if u can post that....

From: kali@optonline.net
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:25:00 -0400

I would like to make two points concerning this issue.
1.Our sexual nature is such that it inclines us towards sexual activiy for the sole purpose of procreation. when a female is seriously sexually aroused there is a ovulation cycle taking that inclines her to the sexual act.this ovulation cycle is no more than the egg moving into a position to be fertilized. When a man is sexually aroused he too is going through a biological sperm cycle whereby his sperm has reached a point it can be ejaculated most forcibly. when a man is humping on a women during the sexual act that pumping action acts as a force to propel the sperm towards the ova(up stream)so as to initiate the birth process. When we misuse that which Allah has given us for a specific use we will eventually reap what we sow!

From: JTAKHAN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:56:32 EDT
Subject: ay yo
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com

AYyo there is no such thing as a queer muslim.Islam condems homosexuality and is very precise about this subject,if you call your self muslims then you should read the holy quran and find out what happened to the people of the prophet lot (pbuh).
I suggest you repent and ask for forgivness,youare lucky that you are not living in an islamic state where you would have been thrown off the tallest building ,which was the sunnah of our prophet (saw). this adbvice is from a hetrosexual homophobic MUSLIM. p.s IF YOU DO NOT STOP YOUR WAYS AND REPENT THEN INSHALLH YOU WILL BE SEVERLY PUNISHED IN THE HEREAFTER.

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:23:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chacha Marley
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com

To Bitch man ,. Yo bitch waz up wid da sight. U fag
mutha. Hidin aint gonna solve jack bitch. Muthafuck u
an yo posse, coz when i man release the juice smack in
yo face you is lookin like a disgrace. You messed wid
da wrong mutha fucka bitch. I find, i gone kill u
bitch make u scream like a bitch and slit yo throat an
hang u out for all da peple to see who you is, an i
man aint afraid of no cops see coz cops n fag killa is
me. I gone hunt u down like a prey my dogs an me gonna
tear up your flesh an feed it to da fags in LA. Come
now an see how i torment ya to da grave....i is out

Sulayman X replies: Hello Tufell. You keep threatening but nothing is happening. Surely you could find something more productive to do with your time?

Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:57:20 +0100
From: Nigel Warner
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: Link to International Lesbian and Gay assn website

We wd be v happy if you linked your web to ours - we will do same. We have info on legal situation in almost all countries in the world

Also special page on Shari'a law

best wishes

Nigel Warner
ILGA web site coordinator

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:59:39 EDT
Subject: May I ask for your help?
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Sulayman X,

I am writing to ask if you know of a shiekh who may grant conditional permission for me and my Muslim friend to be together. We are both gay, but we do not want to sin against God. We are terribly lonely without each other
but because of the danger of the sin, we can only be friends. That is unless we can find a shiekh who may be willing to meet with us and consider discussing a conditional agreement that will allow us to together. If you know of anyone who can help, please email me with his contact information so that we may introduce ourselves to him.

Thank you very much,


Sulayman X replies: If anyone knows of someone who can assist, please let me know and I will pass the information on.

From: "Amal"
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Subject: I need your help.
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:43:21 PDT


I'm a lesbian Arab and I need your help. Me and my Turkish girlfriend need to immigrate to the States or to any place that can accept us. My story is that I was working in a telecommunication company before I knew her. After we new each other and decided to live together I went to Turkey and I resigned. For more than three months I could not find a job and niether
her. So I had to go back to Egypt to find a job and save some money so we can go to any country to live there and be together. Until now I did not find a job and we are suffering cause we cannot be together. I need your help to immigrate to any country and work and live there together.We are very well educated and creative.

Plz we need help.

Thank you

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:31:08 -0800
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
From: Kamal Fizazi
Subject: was looking at your site
CC: gaymuslims@yahoo.com

I thought you might add the organization for which I work to the list of relevant sites:
International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLHRC)

In addition you might want to add:

Astraea National Lesbian Action Foundation (a funder)
[currently their Exec. Dir. is a Lebanese American]

The Hetrick-Martin Institute (for queer youth)

The New York City Lesbian and Gay Community Services Center

Intersex Society of North America
[Not to be confused with Islamic Society of North America -- unless you
want to :) ]

Funders Concerned about AIDS

Gay Men's Health Crisis

Human Rights Watch
[The Middle East department recently published a report on internet freedom in the Middle East, and included a section on access to gay sites like GLAS being restricted in certain countries.]

Doctors Without Borders (Médecins Sans Frontières)
www.dwb.org or www.msf.org

Human Rights Campaign

American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee

National Association of Arab Americans

There are many more but I can't think of them right now.

while you have Lazeeza, you don't have:

khush (I don't know their address)
salga and trikone

From: "Badruddin Khan"
To: gaymuslims@geocities.com
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 19:40:51 PDT

I found your website very interesting. Let me also refer you to my book, titled "Sex, Longing & Not Belonging", published by Floating Lotus Press, and set in Karachi, Pakistan, the US and Canada. The afterword to the book is written by Dr. Stephen Murray, author of "Islamic Homosexualities", which you reference on your website.

Regards, Badruddin Khan

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